Curse

leprekan · Jan 13, 2008, 08:52 AM // 08:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zehnchu

That would never work, all they would do is transfer their items to friends and then get them back once they could come back.

Really hard to not ask this .. exactly how would anyone transfer anything if the account was wiped by Anet. No need to answer that .. you showed so much just by saying it to begin with.

Please do not presume to be able to judge us or why any of us did it. Each case is likely to be different. Trying to play up it was a super secret outpost is ridiculous. People could get to it by typing /resign when in mallyx. You would then return there. Why MANY of us didn't even think it was a "super secret outpost". I can honestly say I didn't see it as any different than the 1000 other ferrys in the game that were not a bannable offense. Somehow I doubt you posted at great length on banning people that used other ferrys in the game ..

This is why you see the 117 posting to begin with. Duncan and the multitude of other things that people got a ferry for were never permabanned. If those had been things that were a ban offense NOBODY would have done this. No matter how it is twisted this is BASIC COMMON SENSE. In 32 months we were shown that a ferry was NOT a ban. I would not have done it with an account with 9000 hours if I even remotely thought it would be a permaban. Give us some credit for even a basic IQ of 70. MANY here praising the ban exploited the hell out of Duncan and HOS so the holier than thou attitudes are wearing a tad thin.

jdsama · Jan 13, 2008, 08:57 AM // 08:57

To preface, I'm not one of the 117, nor have I used the exploit, nor do I have banned friends. I had heard about this exploit before the banning spree but the guy who told me was only a passing acquaintance.

My biases revealed and having scanned through most of this thread, I really think we need to take a step back and try and look at the arguments being thrown around a little more logically.

"Ignorance is not a defence"

This is true to the extent that one cannot claim they haven't read the EULA and are thus allowed to break it; however, this does not apply to someone who knows that, to take the worst case, hacking is against the rules but does not know that they are taking part in a hack. In such cases ignorance is indeed a very solid defence, not even the nuttiest legal systems would enforcement. The law was always the same, the enforcement changed. Anet, quite properly, posted a big warning that they would be enforcing this law as opposed to hanging in kaineng/kamadan/LA for a day and banning everyone.

People took part in an activity which had been treated consistently in the past (at least as far as they were aware) and expected that consistency to continue; I think that is quite a reasonable expectation tbh.

"Duncan/Urgoz/Deep ferries didn't have HAX so they are completely different"

Assuming that this exploit did use hacks, which we'll probably never be completely sure of, the hacking itself is irrelevent to most of the 117's behaviour. It is unreasonable to punish identical behaviour differently. I think we all agree now that if hacks were involved they were used by a very small minority, and whilst we can argue that most of the 117 must have known this farm wasn't exactly kosher (much like the duncan trick) we can't come close to proving they realised it was a hack. This is demonstrated well by Truzo's story halfway through this thread about how to get to the outpost without hacks; regardless of the reliability of this story it was certainly plausible to a lot of people, without gaile's previous testimony it would have been to more I'm sure. With this in mind we have to accept that if the hacking aspect is key to the argument, most of the 117 would be absolved due to their acts in isolation being quite unrelated to actioning or knowledge of any hacking.

"It's Anet's game they can do what they like"

Of course this is true, but is it really a meaningful comment? Anet defended by this argument could do pretty much anything to the game, and indeed they could; however, it is the communities response that matters in these cases. If Anet banned all characters with names beggining with f we would surely find this unjust and there would be an outcry of sorts. It would be a jerkish ban and even people who weren't banned would complain. Perhaps a better example is if Anet banned everyone who had used texmod or taken the consulate ferry; these acts are clearly bannable offences, the communities understanding of these offences however makes a banning spree by Anet unrealistic.

"Entering the outpost is as much a crime as completing the mission"

This isn't a serious argument. If this outpost lacked an enter mission button and people had hacked in to dance and get drunk we'd all be laughing about the super leet area and noone would be banned. It is the mission that makes this a potentially bannable offense.

Now to look at the matter practically. This punishment is graded against two main metrics firstly damage minimisation and secondly deterrent. We can almost ignore damage minimisation for most of the 117 because with the economy as it stands a few armbraces isn't going to make a dent, the number of entries required for a ban shows that protecting the economy is not the prime motivator in this round of bans.
Moving on to deterrence, it is important to stop widespread use of exploits in the future where they could harm the game more seriously than this one. I honestly suspect, however, that temp bans and a warning that perma bans come next would have done the same job, people have too much to lose to risk calling anets bluff. Furthermore, ignorant parties are completely unaffected by such attempts to deter; the most moral of people will sin if they don't realise their sinning.

Finally to look at how plausible the claim of ignorance is. Against this claim we have the following points: they visited a new outpost noone had ever been to; they completed the mission without the normally required preperation; the method required using the guild hall; the outpost had no npcs. OK, we really can't assume everyone reads guru and the wiki for all the visitors knew lots of people may have been to this outpost; furthermore this is an MMO and new things get added. Players needed only have done the quest properly once to use this exploit; there are other quests, such as SF, where the preperation quests are required only once to get to a repeatable final section. The guild hall thing is totally normal, even ignoring the Urgoz/deep usage I've been invited to pugs which then decide to set up at their guild hall on more than one occasion. Finally npcs ... really? Who here goes looks around for npcs when they portal in to start a mission and are not the leader?

As for evidence supporting the claim, we have heavy usage of main accounts. As demonstrated by the successful dupers, if your doing something you think is a real offence you make the connection to your real account as far from obvious as possible. The relatively modest farming rate, I'm inclined to believe that at least a sizable portion of the 117 were not farming the area for all it was worth; noone in their right mind would take a risk like this for two or three armbraces. Most of the 117 were ferried in by friends/guildies; I give my friends a pretty fair allotment of trust, if one of my guildies had taken me to this outpost, sure, I'd be suspicious but if they told me it was all legit I'd buy it. From the sound of things this is the case for a fair few of the posters here. In fact when I first heard about this outpost I asked how it was done, the guy told me that it was a ferry trick from this guy that had gotten a passage scroll from the zaishen chest; I'm not sure if he made that up or was told the lie by someone else but it's actually pretty believable. We know the zaishen has some, as of yet unseen, unique drops; a passage scroll with such a low drop rate wouldn't be imba if it wasn't for the ferrying capacity; a lot of people QQ about DoA being too hard on these very forums.

I'm not trying to suggest that all or any of the 117 were truly ignorant of their actions; I just don't think that we can really be sure enough not to give a number of them the benefit of the doubt. Sure we can say things like "why didn't they think about suspicious evidence xyz", but, to be honest, I know I don't hyperanalyse every new farming run my guildies show me. Punishing people based on the fact they could have theoretically figured out what was wrong seems a bit like hercule poirot calling for everyones arrest at the end of the novel because the evidence he used to solve the case was available to all making everyone accomplices in their silence.

Well that was longer than intended, don't really expect people to read all that, but twas kinda fun to write.

Creeping Carl · Jan 13, 2008, 08:59 AM // 08:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by leprekan

Really hard to not ask this .. exactly how would anyone transfer anything if the account was wiped by Anet. No need to answer that .. you showed so much just by saying it to begin with.

I think what he's saying is that if wiping accounts becomes the standard procedure for punishment then people will just move their stuff to an alt account in anticipation of any wipes. Of course, this doesnt apply to you and the current 117 banned accounts since you can't access them right now.

But I say an outright perma ban is the way to go if indeed players are exploiting and cheating. No reason for leniency for such things and no reason to change the way cheaters are punished now. Why should there be an exception in this case if these people are guilty?

arcanemacabre · Jan 13, 2008, 09:07 AM // 09:07

In my personal opinion, I think there should be perma bans for any kind of hack (and whatever parameters constitutes a hack I have no idea), temp ban for any exploit, and temp ban + account wipe for any exploit that could or did negatively impact others (economy, pvp exploits, etc) on a severe enough scale. Of course this is just how I'd do it.

Shanaeri Rynale · Jan 13, 2008, 10:04 AM // 10:04

Gaile made an interesting comment a few pages back

Quote:

What makes you think we're setting the bar on "farming" only? Whatever gains access to a hidden, unmapped, unpopulated outpost is an exploit. If someone accesses the outpost through an exploit, if someone tries and fails to exploit Mallyx a dozen times, that person is still using an exploit to get to him in the first place.

Gaile is quite right, even getting to the place is using an exploit. But one thing i'm not sure on is that in the dev update she said

Quote:

We chose to permanently ban these 117 accounts because it was clear that the players involved had intentionally exploited a server vulnerability for their personal gain.

Now lets say you could'nt actually get to kill Mallyx or do the mission. You just got mapped to the fake outpost, and all you could do was dance, run about and generally party. For arguments sake we'll call it 'Mallyx club' (the first rule about Mallyx club is...)

Now what personal gain or damage to the economy in just knowing about Mallyx club or visiting it other than "I know where Mallyx club is ner ner ner"?

Would Anet have banned people for visiting Mallyx club if all it was, was a secret party town. I'm not sure. Technically they can, but then we still have the statement of personal gain to contend with

So for me there should be a distinction between those who made no personal gain(just went to Mallyx club) and those who actually won money and items at Mallyx club, as the latter group DID get personal gain and DID affect the economy.

To deal with someone who just went to Mallyx club, and someone who gained rewards at Mallyx club the same just seems a little harsh.

For those who did abuse it, hacked it got armbraces etc. Sorry but you got caught, but you made money out of something you should'nt have.

For those people who just visited Mallyx club, maybe just showed a few friends around it without actually gaining any XP,drops or rewards then I have some sympathy for. I would hope Anet relents a little in these cases and only makes those bans temporary.

The thing is, rampaging at Anet like a load of demented gibbons calling people liars, fraudsters and the like will not get them to look on peoples cases any more favorably. In fact quite the opposite, they are human beings who need sleep, rest and to be treated with respect and courtesy.

Puritans Aid · Jan 13, 2008, 10:12 AM // 10:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

What makes you think we're setting the bar on "farming" only? Whatever gains access to a hidden, unmapped, unpopulated outpost is an exploit. If someone accesses the outpost through an exploit, if someone tries and fails to exploit Mallyx a dozen times, that person is still using an exploit to get to him in the first place.

I'm sorry, but saying "it's only 7 times, I'm innocent" is just wrong.

I know its a small technicallity, but I believe you are using the word, EXPLOIT, wrongly.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

In the realm of online games, an exploit is usually a software bug, hack or bot that contributes to the user's prosperity in a manner not intended by the developers.

If someone DID map the town, then leave, even several times, with no user prosperity, they were still not "exploiting" but would still have been/were banned.

Unless A net has their very own special meaning for the word EXPLOIT>

Puritan

danshep · Jan 13, 2008, 10:12 AM // 10:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by leprekan

Many of us sent her a step by step guide how to be a ferry to Mallyx. NEVER involved ANY hacks. I do not blame her .. she is a figure head reporting what she is told. Knowing computer people .. first response to something they do not know is it was a .. hack .. followed by or a virus. Hence why I am not pissed at her for misinformation .. she just relays it.

The entire process takes all of about 1 minute to be a ferry and that is if you are on a 56k modem.

All four quests complete.

Enter Mallyx quest.

Type /resign.

Press [G] and visit guild hall.

You are now a ferry to Mallyx. Form a party and press [M] at bottom click .. exit guild hall .. you load into the Ebony Citadel .. not a hack and soooo not a super secret outpost considering you can oops into it.

No hacks no sinister villians .. generic ferry101.

This s wat happened to me before the update came i had done this by accident to yet my accounts got banned. altho i resigned at the end of mallyx then to GH not know anything about it.

arcanemacabre · Jan 13, 2008, 10:12 AM // 10:12

Well said, Shanaeri, and I 100% agree. There should be a distinction between those who exploited it and actually gained something from it (one of the definitions of the word 'exploit' - "to utilize, esp. for profit"), and those who just went there once or twice, and/or didn't take part in ferrying or killing Mallyx. Maybe that distinction is there and all 117 did profit in some way (either ferrying or repeatedly killing the gorilla), maybe they didn't. I at least hope that distinction is made (if not now, then soon) and 'punished' properly.

Drop of Fear · Jan 13, 2008, 10:14 AM // 10:14

Quote:

an exploit is usually a software bug, hack or bot that contributes to the user's prosperity in a manner not intended by the developers.

which is exactly what happened here...
truly i cannot believe how people are willing to play with words to try to get unbanned. it's getting ridiculous.

Zehnchu · Jan 13, 2008, 10:24 AM // 10:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by leprekan

Really hard to not ask this .. exactly how would anyone transfer anything if the account was wiped by Anet. No need to answer that .. you showed so much just by saying it to begin with.

You seem to have figured out how to exploit a glitch/bug/hack. And thought you wouldn't get banned for it.

Anyways Creeping Carl was able to figure It out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creeping Carl

I think what he's saying is that if wiping accounts becomes the standard procedure for punishment then people will just move their stuff to an alt account in anticipation of any wipes. Of course, this doesnt apply to you and the current 117 banned accounts since you can't access them right now.

We all know people would do this, why matter of fact some posts here of those who have been banned admitted transferring item to a second account which resulted in that account also being banned.

Human nature is really predictable..

Quote:

Originally Posted by leprekan

Please do not presume to be able to judge us or why any of us did it. Each case is likely to be different

There is no need for me to do that, since Anet has done that already. All I am doing is agreeing with them about there decision.

Quote:

Originally Posted by leprekan

Trying to play up it was a super secret outpost is ridiculous. People could get to it by typing /resign when in mallyx. You would then return there. Why MANY of us didn't even think it was a "super secret outpost".

I can honestly say I didn't see it as any different than the 1000 other ferrys in the game that were not a bannable offense. Somehow I doubt you posted at great length on banning people that used other ferrys in the game ..

See this is the point you don't seem to understand or don't want to. Bottom line is that it was a restricted outpost. Further more it's one that you exploited.

Quote:

Originally Posted by leprekan

This is why you see the 117 posting to begin with. Duncan and the multitude of other things that people got a ferry for were never permabanned. If those had been things that were a ban offense NOBODY would have done this. No matter how it is twisted this is BASIC COMMON SENSE. In 32 months we were shown that a ferry was NOT a ban. I would not have done it with an account with 9000 hours if I even remotely thought it would be a permaban. Give us some credit for even a basic IQ of 70. MANY here praising the ban exploited the hell out of Duncan and HOS so the holier than thou attitudes are wearing a tad thin.

Let’s stop playing dumb here, the only reason is because you don’t like your punishment for being caught for cheating. And you want your account back.

Rathcail · Jan 13, 2008, 10:26 AM // 10:26

You folks who are convinced that you ended up to the outpost by accident and didn't go ahead and exploit it repeatedly (that would be bannable still), should give the support some time to sort this out. It's the weekend, I don't think they spend extra hours on this outside workdays.

Fril Estelin · Jan 13, 2008, 10:27 AM // 10:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puritans Aid

I have a lvl 3 government security clearance, for a job I did 3 years ago.

Out of the thousands of things I wanted to quote and mention, I'll only quote the above (see also Inde's post on page 88). It is uterly ridiculous because: 1) it's only your word; 2) I doubt anyone serious about government clearance would use this in a game fan forum; 3) even if it's true, it does not prove anything. Trust is something that is built rather than bought, it takes years and not minutes. If one were to look at your several posts in this thread, one would realise quickly the problem.

This thread is the perfect example of the situation I mentioned in the thread What is cheating? And to mention hallomik's take on the issue, one can boil it down to:

1. It uses external programs never envisioned.
2. It violates the EULA.
3. It makes fair competition impossible.
4. It directly harms another player's experience.

Number 1 has clearly been done by one hacker, while number 2 concerns the "exploiters" that were contaminated by simply joining with a hacker (for the first round of exploiters) or someone that copied the hack method (which technically make them a hacker, though legally not liable at the same level, see the situation of "script kiddies"). Number 3 seems obvious though not discussed here (people would rather create a diversion and mention the other exploits rather than discuss this one). Regarding number 4, there is the issue of trust in other players (I've read so much hypocrisy in this thread!), but that's another discussion.

This situation of the mallyx-exploit was "cheating" and trying to prove the contrary would lead you to twist the meaning of words (see comment above on government clearance). Furthermore it would be ridiculous to have some form of "justice" by having those that exploited (though not via client hack, as this is a SERIOUS hack) previous bugs banned too, because this can also clearly be seen as a form of "retaliation" (a.k.a. I suffered and I'm going to make you suffer too/I won't go down alone).

A script kiddie is someone who thinks of code as magical incantations and asks only 'what do I need to type to make this happen?

Creeping Carl · Jan 13, 2008, 10:28 AM // 10:28

And gee what a surprise. Look at all the people now claiming how they accidently /resigned from MallyX and that's how they ended up in the secret outpost...multiple times. The excuses keep changing.

Master Knightfall · Jan 13, 2008, 10:35 AM // 10:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by danshep

This s wat happened to me before the update came i had done this by accident to yet my accounts got banned. altho i resigned at the end of mallyx then to GH not know anything about it.

Yah huh yeah sure right and you expect us to believe you. lol I just loveeeee the lies the guilty tell after the fact don't the rest of you? hahaah Guilty by accessory I say. Birds of a feather flock together. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Package them up and ship em out to Alcatraz.

leprekan · Jan 13, 2008, 10:45 AM // 10:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creeping Carl

LOL.

Well, however this damn thing works you knew you were exploiting an unintended bug and farming the place. I dont care if you had to twirl around 3 times, click your heels and do a happy jig. The bottomline is that any one with half a brain knows that warping to MallyX certainly was an exploit.

As was the ferry to Duncan the second the Ferry left the zone it was a bug being exploited. Those in Duncan were blatantly exploiting a place they were not supposed to be in yet. Feel free to show me the list of permabans from this.

Those of you stating this does not apply are full of it. If Anet has shown over the course of 32 months that a ferry is not a ban offense. It is MORE than reasonable for people to assume this would not have been as well. Said it before and still applies .. many passing judgement on this are guilty of taking a ferry some place before this. How quickly the tunes would change if they decided to go even deeper into server logs to Duncan and ban for that.

Fril Estelin · Jan 13, 2008, 10:46 AM // 10:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by leprekan

110% positive this is NOT because of a previous visit to it. First time I was taken in by a ferry I logged onto another character to verify it was a ferry. That character had not been in a DOA party since May yet she still had all 4 zones done. I entered Mallyx SOLO and typed resign. Then went to hall from Mallyx. Clicked leave hall and loaded right back into Ebony Citadel. Took more time to load the screens than to become a ferry.

It is possible that the first time you were ferried, being in the same party as someone that hacked the client (or someone who was previously in the party of someone who hacked the client, and so on), this unlocked a special flag on the server, which applies to the whole account. In other words, the exploit "contaminates" accounts.

Master Knightfall · Jan 13, 2008, 10:50 AM // 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azarr#1

Wrong again buddy you test this theory of yours because its wrong. get your facts straight only accounts are banned buddy. Im not going to listen too you anymore

Obviously you don't read and I do. I read Gailes comments awhile back on how banning goes for bots. Was even in one of the Dev update pages that not only was the initial account banned, but, any accounts associated along with it from the same IP, address, name and any other identical information in their system. So you are wrong an ignorant buddy. Read the facts and stop thinking like YOU KNOW cause you don't you just proved it IGMO.

Fril Estelin · Jan 13, 2008, 10:53 AM // 10:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by leprekan

Those of you stating this does not apply are full of it. If Anet has shown over the course of 32 months that a ferry is not a ban offense. It is MORE than reasonable for people to assume this would not have been as well. Said it before and still applies .. many passing judgement on this are guilty of taking a ferry some place before this. How quickly the tunes would change if they decided to go even deeper into server logs to Duncan and ban for that.

I never did. And I'm not going to use this to pass a judgement, because Anet did pass this judgement and I believe that it's not only their right, but they did it with carefull consideration. At one point, there's a guy that hacked the client and may (we only have theories so far and mine is only one possiblity amongst many) have unlocked dev-specific code on the server, contaminating other people who then became suddenly able to ferry to Mallyx.

Or else, the hack you describe is true and we will never know because it was apparently fixed in the Jan 10 update.

You cannot defend the position of "exploiter" in this case. With the thousands of hours you and others have in the game, it should have been clear that something fishy was going on. So may I ask what you're trying to achieve here?

leprekan · Jan 13, 2008, 10:59 AM // 10:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

It is possible that the first time you were ferried, being in the same party as someone that hacked the client (or someone who was previously in the party of someone who hacked the client, and so on), this unlocked a special flag on the server, which applies to the whole account. In other words, the exploit "contaminates" accounts.

I would lean towards no. No way for anyone to answer server side questions except Anet. The person that was the original ferry for me was said to have been the original. Annoying person yes .. hacker? LOL. No offense to him but gifted in code does not spring to mind when thinking of him. When the dust settles it will prove to be a generic guild hall ferry.

The ferry seemed to work like ALL the rest of the ferry from guild hall things .. deep urgoz etc. One had to have been there first then resigned to guild hall. After that they could exit guild hall to prior area .. aka ferry.

Phaern Majes · Jan 13, 2008, 11:01 AM // 11:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by leprekan

No offense. What I listed IS right. Your "expert" opinion won't change that. You seem to be trying to build yourself a name at our expense. There never was a hack involved or even your zoneid theory. Straight forward ferry .. the steps I listed worked first try and I wasn't even sure how the ferry worked when I tried it .. yet success with no effort.

Once again nobody is saying that you yourself ever hacked anything. The very first person to get into the outpost/zone is the one that hacked it. Once they were in they could just ferry everyone else, unfortunate for those ferried. I am willing to believe that some of you didn't realize it was a restricted zone. However if you want me to assume you have the IQ 70 or better than I'm going to assume you would know that there is something fishy about an outpost that lets you skip all the long and hard parts of a quest and jump straight to Mallyrx. Not to mention anyone with an IQ 70 or better would know that you can't justify one wrong based on another. Just because people didn't get banned before isn't a justifiable reason to do it again, especially since anyone with said IQ would know it was an exploit. Sure its sucky that Anet decided to do something about it this time, but whats the saying... Misery loves company?

Quote:

Originally Posted by leprekan

The person that was the original ferry for me was said to have been the original. Annoying person yes .. hacker? LOL. No offense to him but gifted in code does not spring to mind when thinking of him. When the dust settles it will prove to be a generic guild hall ferry.

Its also quite possible that the person lied about being the original. Merely wanting credit for the deed.